At the risk of stopping conversation from my last post, I 'd like to post about a conversation today. I called my friend Jay today and his son Roland answered. Roland says, "My mom says I should ask you about the devil". This is quite odd for a few reasons. Roland and I have not talked much before let alone about such important matters as the devil. But he wanted to know about the origin of the devil and about where he gets his power and those such things.
These questions make me nervous. I have talked a lot with Keith about my views on Satan and on spiritual warfare and on demons and evil and the like. But I wasn't prepared to tell a child about them. I gave him the traditional answer about Lucifer being thrown from heaven because of his greed and because he was power hungry. But then I kind of went into the battle between the kingdoms.
My point in this blog is to get some dialogue drummed up about the reality of Satan and spiritual warfare. I used to use spiritual warfare language to get what I wanted as a YFC missionary. If people think you are "being attacked", they respond with prayer and money. Sorry... it's the truth. But isn't a better description of evil and what cause us to do evil really the depravity of man? Do I sound like a Calvinist? Maybe. But each time I blame Satan for what is going on in this world, I take away the responsibility of evil men. Evil men like myself. When I do something that hurts my wife, it would be easy to say, "The devil made me do it". I guess it's really true too except "the devil" isn't an a literal being. He is "me" when I want to do as I please. he is the concept of evil. He is the force that opposes the coming kingdom.
Can somebody who is smart please clear this all up for us. (This is where I make you all think you're smart just so you'll comment).
22 comments:
I just noticed that my last 3 posts have been about hell, satan, and destruction. I promise my next one won't be.
I think the bible addresses Satan/Lucifer/The Deciever as both a force and a literal being. I know that "evil" exists in the world but I don't know how much of it is or should be attributed to the power of Satan. I agree with you, and am taking more liberty with what you said, that it almost cheapens the healing process if you say, "Satan made me do it!" I mean, then you can't be mad at me, you have to refocus your anger on a third party. Kind of convenient for those who have a difficult time accepting responsibility for their actions.
However, having said that, I do think there is a place in our lives where what we know is RIGHT (or what God would require of us) and what we know is WRONG (or against what God would require of us) come face-to-face. This is what I call "spiritual warfare", not that it occurs somewhere else on someother plane of the universe as some cheesy novels may suggest, but that we are in battle with our free will vs. our surrendered will to God. It's about our personal choice and responsibility.
But maybe not. What else do you think?
I totally agree jodi, and well written.
"I do think there is a place in our lives where what we know is RIGHT (or what God would require of us) and what we know is WRONG (or against what God would require of us) come face-to-face."
The Greek word is 'conscience' con-with and science-knowledge. (The word conscience shows up 34 times in the NIV.)
Romans 2:15 "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
2 Samuel 24:9-11 "David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, 'I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.'"
The conscience can be ignored/seared and thus the continuation of sin is easier. You certainly don't need to hold the devil by the hand to sin; all you a have to do is make a choice.
Jodi- I don't disagree. I am not entirely sure what I think about a literal Satan. I probably lean towards a concept rather than an actual being. I probably wouldn't die on that hill though.
Oscar- well said. I think that our conscience calls us to bring the kingdom. This includes more than just the "No-No" sins. It includes lifestyle choices including our views on consumerism and the implications of how we spend our money and treat others. In the last few years I have tried to focus less on the "No-No" sins and more ona holistic view of sin and life.
I think you can go too far in either direction. I've had friends who "saw" the devil everywhere and blamed everything from illness to Sunday morning problems with the church audio/visual system on demons. I don't think this is wise at all. You end up blaming the devil for everything and consuming too much time chasing the devil around.
On the other hand, I don't want to say the devil is only a figurative part of scripture. I think it would be dangerous, theologically speaking, to say that when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness that it wasn't the devil, but rather was "the devil within."
Is there really a good reason to deny a literal devil/demonic spiritual force other than that it seems kind of hokey in our scientific, rational 21st century society?
Job 1:6; Job 1:6-8; Job 1:7-9; Job 2:6-8; 2 Cor. 11:14; Acts 26:18; Rev. 20:1-10
The bible speaks of "Satan and God" in the above passages. Satan must therefore be a literal being as God is a literal being. Otherwise it's like saying 'evil and good' which is to say God doesn't exist but there is only the idea of good. That would suck because then there would be no God to create Heaven and no remission of sin. Also the Bible uses words referring to Satan as 'his, he, him'. If Satan was only the concept of evil why use the pronoun "him" and not "it".
You're right steve, because Jesus was perfect; sinless; God in the flesh; and it is impossible for Him to have the "devil within" to deal with.
Our conscience bears witness to God's Holy Law, God's standard of right and wrong; The Law and the conscience bear witness(Rom 2:15,9:1) convicting a man of his sins that he might repent. One day we will stand in judgment(Rom. 2:5) and that is a fearful thing for any man whose sins are not covered by the blood of Christ.(Heb. 10:31) But, just as the Law and conscience condemn us; the payment by Christ sets us free.(John 3:16)
The bible speaks of "Satan and God" in the above passages. Satan must therefore be a literal being as God is a literal being. Otherwise it's like saying 'evil and good' which is to say God doesn't exist but there is only the idea of good. That would suck because then there would be no God to create Heaven and no remission of sin".
Quite a leap. "If Satan is figurative, then there is no God". Would you also say that if there is no Job that there is no God? How about when Satan was in heaven betting on Job's soul. Orthodoxy says that God cannot be in the presence of evil.
Christian,
Wow, conversations have been getting a little too heated and cantankerous for me on the last couple of post.
Anyway, Christian I don't know what I think anymore about a personal devil. For a long time I think I was starting to think of evil more in terms of a lack or deprivation of the good; that it only exist in so far as creation is rebelling against God.
However, I think that Graham Greene has a point in his novel The End of the Affair. Greene writes:
“I have never understood why people who can swallow the enormous improbability of a personal God boggle at a personal Devil. I have known so intimately the way that demon works in my imagination. No statement that Sarah ever made was proof against his cunning doubts, though he would usually wait till she had gone to utter them. He would prompt our quarrels long before they occurred: he was not Sarah’s enemy so much as the enemy of love, and isn’t that what the devil was supposed to be? I can imagine that if there existed a God who loved, the devil would be driven to destroy even the weakest, the most faulty imitation of that love. Wouldn’t he be afraid that the habit of love might grow, and wouldn’t he try to trap us all into being traitors, into helping him extinguish love? If there is a God who uses us and makes his saints out of such material as we are, the devil too may have his ambitions; he may dream of training even such a person as myself, even poor Parkis, into being his saints, ready with borrowed fanaticism to destroy love wherever we find it.” [The End of the Affair, p. 47]
That blows me away every time. Also, I do think that scripture is pretty clear there is a personal evil in the world that is the enemy of all that is good. However, it is not clear where it comes from. As I have been studying Eastern Orthodoxy, I am becoming more and more convinced that the tradition of a fallen angel may be correct. Though I must laugh when those who try to be strict biblicist in most cases adhere to that tradition. There is really not much in scripture that supports the idea. What is there is more like an outline. Kind of like the Trinity, another doctrine that -though precious - it makes me laugh a bit when I hear it from those solo-scriptura types :)
Blessings,
Wayne
ps, I finally wrote something new on my blog
well said wayne. I should make it clear that I have no problem with somebody who says satan is a real being. But somebody who says it with certainty I think is cheating themselves of fully seeking truth. But you said it much better than I.
There is no absolute truth. You can’t be sure of anything!
Those who say that there are no absolutes are often very adamant about their belief. If they say that they are absolutely sure, then they are wrong because their own statement is an absolute. If they are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that they are wrong and they are risking their eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief. God tells us that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, on which we can base our eternity. That truth is the Word of God (John 17:7).
I don't want to change the subject but since the Trinity was brought up.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
One God who plays three roles in salvation.
You can find some well written answers about the Trinity at the following link: http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/jehovaha.htm#trinity
I love a good story. I think the Metanarrative of scripture is an amazing story.
But story's suck without a good antagonist - and let's face it, the Devil is as a good an antagonist as you'll ever find.
So on that principle alone I just don't like the idea of a figurative Satan.
Oscar,
"One God who plays three roles in salvation."
Wow, perhaps in your efforts to refute contemporary Arianism (Jehovah's witness) you have yielded to another age old heresy, i.e modalism (or Sabellianism). "Three roles" sounds awfully close to the language of 'three modes' or 'masks.'
On the contrary,Christian orthodoxy à la Nicea says that God is one hupostasis (essence) in three persons.
Peace,
Wayne
"If they are not 100 percent sure, then there is a chance that they are wrong and they are risking their eternal salvation by trusting in a wrong belief. God tells us that there is an objective, absolute truth that is not subject to man’s interpretations or whims, on which we can base our eternity. That truth is the Word of God (John 17:7)".
Interesting. You have assumed that I don't believe in absolute truth. I have found that most of your judgements about me have been assumptions. That's Ok. I wonder what things yout to be absolute truths are the things I think are absolute truths. Maybe we could have a real conversation about that instead of talking past each other. By the way, do you reall think you can go to hell for trusting in wrong belief? What must one believe? What does believe mean? Can you doubt those beliefs ever? What if you do have doubts but you never admit it? Is that sin? What if you don't repent from this sin? Just curious.
At your request I am taking my time to reply. If you believe all ideas must be original to be of value then you may be correct as all ideas are at one point original. Much of what I wrote I was the author of. I think, however, it is acceptable to quote scripture even though I wasn't the original author.
The comment about the trinity was only a simple explanation, I am not God and therefore could not give you an accurate explanation.
I never have nor will judge you Christian and I think if you are a Christian then you would not be offended by anything I have said, much of which wasn't specifically directed at you. Perhaps you're just looking for someone to hate you, looking for your antagonist?
I do think you believe in absolute truth because to believe there is no absolute truth is an absolute statement. There are things in this world that are absolutely true that I believe in. The Word of God, the Bible is absolute truth about which, through the Holy Spirit I can stake my life on. You are concerned I am taking things out of context but have you taken the time to research thoroughly? I will not continue to waste my time reasoning with the unreasonable.
Consider my motives for anything I've said. I'm not concerned with your perception of me, if I was I'd use my full name like I used to before my salvation when I was full of pride. I'm not profiting from any of this, in fact I lose money by taking work time to do it, I'm self-employed. I'm not asking you to join a church, but I now encourage you, if you're not already, to find one that is Bible believing and has an accurate view of Salvation.
Maybe deep down you're just wondering if I am really saved? I don't think you've assumed it, nor have you assumed I wasn't. Maybe you don't care about me? I haven't assumed anything about you... yet you seem to think I have. Here is an absolute truth I know: if you are saved you need Jesus, if you are not saved you need Jesus and my presence here all started by me trying to help you share Jesus in a Biblical, non offensive, loving way.
Like the repentant thief on the cross whom Jesus set free of his sins, I am also set free and like the thief I am not saved by theology but saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. God stepped off his throne and became a man, suffered and died for our lawlessness, was buried and rose again defeating death, he presented himself to the apostles in the flesh and ascended to Heaven.
As for the latest post "Devil Inside?" I don't think you're saved or not saved by believing in a "literal Satan", I think many ignorant(without knowledge) people have gone to Heaven, but would you limit the power of God in His ability to create a being with the freedom of choice besides humans. God didn't create evil, but just as we humans have choice and can create and invent, why couldn't an angel or whoever you believe Satan to have been, have the ability to make a choice against God and to create, invent and market evil. I don't believe Adam and Eve would have made the choice to rebel against God without some outside influence, and that's how the book of Genesis reads.
"God didn't create evil, but just as we humans have choice and can create and invent, why couldn't an angel or whoever you believe Satan to have been, have the ability to make a choice against God and to create, invent and market evil."
I just wrote this a minute ago and I think I didn't write it correctly/the way I meant it. I wrote wrongly that Satan created' evil. God didn't create sin but He willed it. He allowed for the freedom to choose against His will and that is what Satan and man does. And it was through the sin of Adam that all men are fallen as is stated in Genesis. Satan is the prompter but it is ultimately the choice of man.
Hey Oscar. I can appreciate your concern for time. I have a bunch of hours a day while at work and don't always think about what a "normal" person must do to spend so much time online. Thanks for coming back and giving us insight.
A couple things. I think my lasy post was pretty ungracious and I apologize. I plan on deleting it (unless you object). I think if we sat down for a coffee or adult beverage that we could have a good conversation. So much gets lost in trying to translate what the words on the screen actually communicate.
I think my point is still valid about some of the comments you made. I think it revealed your intentions for engaging me in conversation in the first place. I have no doubt that you care a lot for people. Nobody would spend so much time crafting a comment who didn't care. But I think it shows the differece in ideology that we have about how we are to interact with others (including those who are not a part of the church).
I think you believe it must be your goal to help change the thinking of a person in order to get them to follow Christ. If one can understand intellectually what the premises of the faith are, then they canunderstand their need for God and can thus be saved. I too want folks to become part of The Way. But not at the expense of allienating them. I believe the church is called to much more than just proselytiing. I believe you think so too. I prefer to let a person come to God without my nudging. Maybe I even believe that people come to God because God calls them. But I know I want to have a part in expanding the Kingdom, but that I don't want to be the driving force. Anyways, blessing sagain and if I don't see you around, I pray for success in what you do and that you bless God with where you're at.
I'm not asking you to do anything but think about someone who is unsaved. A friend, a family member, a coworker, a stranger on the street and imagine if that person dies in their sin without knowing Christ. It might be too late if you wait for your friend or brother to have an 'experience'. Isn't it true that someone told you about Christ, or at one time you were 'nudged'? I agree no one comes to the father unless he calls him and in personal witnessing it's pretty easy to tell when someone's not open to spiritual things and I don't press the subject unless I want a bloody lip! Also I wouldn't dare say "you're going to hell because you don't share your faith." We don't get to heaven because of our works. I personally don't want to just get in by the skin-of-my-teeth but want to have "treasures in heaven". I want to bring as many people with me as I can.
I appreciate your openness and pray you look further into the use of the Law in making way for Grace. Again, I would be happy to send you, free of charge, any books I have on this subject. And sorry for the long post but I think it is worth looking into if only by the words of these men:
Martin Luther: He said, “Satan, the god of all dissension stirs up daily new sects. And last of all which of all others I should never have foreseen or once suspected, he has raised up a sect such as teach that men should not be terrified by the law, but gently exhorted by the preaching of the grace of Christ.”
Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones: "The trouble with people who are not seeking for a Savior, and for salvation, is that they do not understand the nature of sin. It is the peculiar function of the Law to bring such an understanding to a man’s mind and conscience. That is why great evangelical preachers 300 years ago in the time of the Puritans, and 200 years ago in the time of Whitefield and others, always engaged in what they called a preliminary 'Law work.'”
John Wycliffe, the Bible translator. He said, “The highest service to which a man may obtain on earth is to preach the law of God.”
“If you do not use the law in gospel proclamation, you will fill the church with false converts.”
C. S. Lewis: “When we merely say that we are bad, the ‘wrath’ of God seems a barbarous doctrine; as soon as we perceive our bad-ness, it appears inevitable, a mere corollary from God’s goodness…”
Matthew Henry: “Herein is the Law of God above all other laws, that it is a spiritual law. Other laws may forbid compassing and imagining, which are treason in the heart, but cannot take cognizance thereof, unless there be some overt act; but the Law of God takes notice of the iniquity regarded in the heart, though it go no further.”
D. L. Moody: "Ask Paul why [the Law] was given. Here is his answer, ‘That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become
guilty before God’ (Romans 3:19). The Law stops every man’s mouth. I can always tell a man who is near the kingdom of God; his
mouth is stopped. This, then, is why God gives us the Law—to show us ourselves in our true colors."
John Wesley: “While he cries out, O what love have I to thy Law! all the day long is my study in it. He sees daily, in that divine mirror, more and more of his own sinfulness. He sees more and more clearly, that he is fullness a sinner in all things -- that neither his heart nor his ways are right before God, and that every moment sends him to Christ.
“Therefore I cannot spare the Law one moment, no more than I can spare Christ, seeing I now want it as much to keep me to Christ, as I ever wanted it to bring me to Him. Otherwise this ‘evil heart of unbelief’ would immediately ‘depart from the living God.’ Indeed each is continually sending me to the other--the Law to Christ, and Christ to the Law.”
A. W. Pink: “Just as the world was not ready for the New Testament before it received the Old, just as the Jews were not prepared for the ministry of Christ until John the Baptist had gone before Him with his claimant call to repentance, so the unsaved are in no condition today for the Gospel till the Law be applied to their hearts, for ‘by the Law is the knowledge of sin.’ It is a waste of time to sow seed on ground which has never been ploughed or spaded! To present the vicarious sacrifice of Christ to those whose dominant passion is to take fill of sin, is to give that which is holy to the dogs.”
George Whitefield said to his hearers, “First, then, before you can speak peace to your hearts, you must be made to see, made to feel, made to weep over, made to bewail, your actual transgressions against the Law of God.”
John Newton (wrote "Amazing Grace"): “Ignorance of the nature and design of the Law is at the bottom of most religious mistakes.”
Martin Luther: "...we would not see nor realize it (what a distressing and horrible fall in which we lie), if it were not for the Law, and we would have to remain forever lost, if we were not again helped out of it through Christ. Therefore the Law and the Gospel are given to the end that we may learn to know both how guilty we are and to what we should again return."
Shalomy,
Oscar
dakotalacrosse@yahoo.com
Oscar. I understand your perspective. I thought close to that way at one time as well. Maybe some day you'll think differently. Maybe not. Either way, as long as we both respect each other and those we are trying to love and serve.
What made you fall away from the faith?
Fundamentalism and people who need to be right.
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