I HATE IT. Now I'm the first person to say, "my, hate is an awefully strong word to use..." but in this case it fits the bill. I want it removed from the web! It's possibly the most offensive TRACT I've ever seen. It's rediculous in fact!
I was thinking my picture looks more like I'm drugs! Or like I just got back from the dentist:) I wasn't really pissed, just using inflamitory language to get my point accross, but you said it much more peacefully: It's in poor taste. At best it is a narrow sighted view of the gospel. P.S. How's you "gas" situation????
Hey did you get my email? I sent an email to the sbc email that you have on your blog profile - about the party as well as about having you guys over for din-din. get back to me.
It's a very comlicated system. I had to download something that connected me to all the local police in every city of the world. It's a few seconds behind the "actual" numbers, but for the most part pretty accurate. There are some other nuances (is that how you spell that?) that are really technologically comlicated that I don't have the time or teaching capabilities to explain to you. I don't want to waist valuable evangelism time on that anyways.
ha, ha... I think I'll build a ticker that keeps track of the number of people who are offended(1Cor.2:14) by this ticker and the thought of sin and death. In reality it's closer to 155,000 people that die a day anyway.
"At best it is a narrow sighted view of the gospel." Have you ever gotten a metal sliver in your finger? It hurts, doesn't it. The narrowest sliver can cause one to stop and examine his hand.
While I could care less if you have the ticker or not I think it's bold of you to put it up in light of your friends views. It doesn't take a gimic to preach the gospel, the Bible's all you need as I'm sure you know. As long as you preach Christ and Him crucified I rejoice. Sometimes, however, it can take a little poke to get a Christian to act out their faith(whether it be an act of kindness or sharing the gospel) and if this ticker makes someone reflect on the importance of life and time then it's done it's job. I'm quite sure some of you will have clever things to say in reply and may I say it's been a pleasure conversing with people of such candid humor.
What worries me is that the ticker goes up by tenths. One hundred twenty seven point three people died while i was reading your weblog???
Now that just don't make no sense.
Hey Oscar -- what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible based on hypocritical, hateful, judgmental ways scripture has been used in some American churches? It the Bible still all i need?
See, most people in this country who behave as though they want nothing to do with Christ and His message of love, grace and peace, are either devout churchgoers who use the Bible to explain their lifestyles, or they're disillusioned seekers who want nothing to do with the hypocrisy and hate of the first group.
Quoting John 3:16 at these people will get you condescending smiles from both groups, probably.
And Rabbit: can we start a conversation about oblivion? Maybe hell is the final exit. Sweet -- if anyone is part of a Christian Death Metal band, they can use that as a lyric.
"Quoting John 3:16 at these people will get you condescending smiles from both groups, probably."
You're right it makes someone feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know their loved. Nevertheless, salvation comes through repentance. How will someone see their need for the savior if they don't see their need for a savior? Check out the book of Acts. Many people think that since Peter preached grace that that's what the church today must do. However, Peter was speaking to Israel who already knew the Law. In fact no-one knew the Law better than the Jews, they were experts. They already knew they had sinned against a Holy God but were still trying to justify themselves by their works. All Peter had to do was tell them the good news of the risen Christ; because the blood of Christ is the only payment for sins. Remember Jesus said, "no-one comes to the Father but by me" To say there is another way to Heaven is to call God a liar.
juanito said: "what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible based on hypocritical, hateful, judgmental ways scripture has been used in some American churches? It the Bible still all i need?"
Thankfully there are Christians God has gifted to help us reach the lost, for example I really like and support Mark Cahill's ministry. Yes the Bible is all you need and should be used to judge all other works. For example if you don't think Mark Cahill has a Biblically accurate viewpoint you can refer to scripture and find out. Avoiding the Bible because of how other people misused it(even Hitler used the Bible) described me to the letter before I became a Christian. After coming to a true knowledge of sin, repenting, and giving my life to Christ(in a nutshell born-again) I started reading my Bible and realized you have to be careful who you call Christian. If someone is using scripture in a "hypocritical, hateful, judgmental way" there's two things happening: 1)they don't know how to use scripture 2)they're not a Christian.
Don't be like one who says: "Jesus didn’t condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, but condemned those who judged her. Therefore you shouldn’t judge others."
The Christian is not "judging others" but simply telling the world of God’s judgment —that God (not the Christian) has judged all the world as being guilty before Him (Romans 3:19,23). Jesus was able to offer that woman forgiveness for her sin, be-cause He was on His way to die on the cross for her. She acknowledged Him as "Lord," but He still told her, "Go, and sin no more." If she didn’t repent, she would perish.
Can you see that a Christian doesn't judge someone, he only warns others of God's judgment? Yes we need to be Biblical in how we present the gospel because the natural man doesn't know spiritual things, they're foolish to him. Look at the words used in Scripture: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...The god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not ...But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them. . . Having their understanding darkened. . . because of the blindness of their heart ...Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
With these thoughts in mind, read 2 Timothy 2:24–26 and look at the adjectives used by Paul to describe the attitude we are to have with sinners: “must not strive...be gentle...patient ...in meekness.” Just as it is unreasonable to be impatient with a blind man, so it is with the sinner. If a blind man walked in the room and stumbled over the coffee table you wouldn't say "watch where you're going stupid blind man!" You'd have a loving attitude toward him instead, wouldn't you? Likewise with the spiritually blind. If the same blind man were walking toward a cliff with a shear thousand foot drop would you go up and say "hi, how are you, you should walk this direction. It's really much nicer and happier and it'll make you smile, just look at me I'm much better off."? No, you'd warn him about the cliff and the drop wouldn't you? In the late 1980s, TV commercials in the U.S. asked, "What goes through the mind of a driver who is not wearing a seat belt in a head-on collision?" Then they showed a crash dummy having its head crushed by a steering wheel in a collision, and said, "The steering wheel!" Those were scare tactics, but no one complained because they were legitimate scare tactics. That’s what happens in a head-on collision if you are foolish enough to not put on a seat belt. To warn of hell is fearful, but it is absolutely legitimate, because the Bible says that it is a fearful thing for a sinner to fall into the hands of the living God.
sorry for the long post I'll try to keep it much shorter in the future. Check out my latest posts starting with "Is Hell for real?" and moving up to "How to Confront Sinners" for more on the subject of sin, hell, and judgment. But don't take my word for it search the Scriptures and see.
"Hey Oscar -- what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible"
I feel I didn't address this issue as well as I should as I can see juanito, you have a compassion for the lost. It's easier if you remember we can't save anyone, only God can and from scripture we know no-one comes to the Father unless He calls him. It's always harder to share the gospel with someone who's already tried Jesus out and had a bad experience, or think they are already saved but follow a false doctrine such as JW, LDS. You can avoid talking about Jesus, religion, evolution, by using the ten commandments and telling them what the Bible says about God's judgment. If their not open to talking about spiritual things then you won't be able to force it on them. In the words of C.S. Lewis "no-one was ever converted by an arguement."
Well now. Who would have ever thought that one little ticker could cause so much controversy. I was talking to juanito today about it. I think he is smart. I really apologize to anybody that was genuinely offended.
Oscar. Again, I thank you for being a part of our discussion. Thanks for having thick skin to be able to withstand our sarcastic comments and ideas.
I'll comment on a few things. 1. Oscar. you quoted 1 Cornith. 2:14. Here is the scripture you quoted. "14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ".
It's hard for me to believe that you think that you are sooo right and that anybody that disagrees with you is the type of person Paul is speaking of. In essence, you are saying that those that disagree with you on this blog do not have the Spirit. Is this true?
Here is my perspective on your evangelism ideaology/methodology/philosophy/ etc. I would not view the ticker I had up as the things of the Spirit. In fact, I think that the gospel of fear is harmful to the kingdom of God. I believe that even though it is done in the name of God, that He is displeased. Can you see that we have two totally different views of the gospel= good news. The good news isn't that we are saved from hell. Do you agree with that?
Also, you said this..."Sometimes, however, it can take a little poke to get a Christian to act out their faith(whether it be an act of kindness or sharing the gospel) and if this ticker makes someone reflect on the importance of life and time then it's done it's job".
I don't think it was your intention, but I found it funny that you infer that "kindness" and "sharing the gospel" are different. I think this is the mentality of many Christians unfortunately.
I'll post more in a second, but since Keith can't read good, I don't want this to be too long. If I had pictures, I'd put them in so you caould follow better Keith.
Keith... about hell. I believe in annhialation. I don't know how to spell it, but I believe in it. If God sends people to hell, (let's not get tied up in semantics of how one gets there), but if God sends people to hell, it is surely not eternal torture or punishment. It is a second death.
Juanito. You are correct. Ther cannot be a fraction of a person who has died. Just another reason why we shouldn't use the ticker. It's unbiblical. If something is not truthful, it must be from Satan... since the ticker is not fully true, it must be satanic.
Also, I like your comment about condescending smiles. I can envision these smiles and in fact have gotten them before. I suppose it's my turn in life to be giving them for a while.
cmort- welcome to the conversation. Hell is no party! Surely you will not continue your evil ways in hell, but instead be confined to a small cell that is burning with sulfur. It will burn off all of your flesh until you are gone and yet you will not really be gone... you will be in a tinier cell that is brurning with sulfur. This will continue until you are really really tiny and burning. And then it will start over. Want to change your mind about going to hell now. Get right with the Lord.
One final comment that I hope will be really controversial and bring back lots of comments.
I think that the evangelical church (including me)is guilty of idolotry. The Bible is not God. Although I find the teachings of the Bible valuable and an account of God's interactions with his creation, it is no manuel for life. With the misinterpretations we see on a daily basis... even on this site... I am skeptical of any groups take on scripture. Of course I have adopted my own view on spiritual matters from the scriptures, but any time a group gets together and says, "This is what the scriptures mean here", I wonder what their motives are. POwer has corrupted the Church and will continue to corrupt the church until the groom returns. I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive. I think God does too and I could proof text scripture to back up my point, but I think we all know scripture here pretty well. so, come to my side and you will see clearly. or will you...
Christian wrote: "It's hard for me to believe that you think that you are sooo right and that anybody that disagrees with you is the type of person Paul is speaking of. In essence, you are saying that those that disagree with you on this blog do not have the Spirit. Is this true?"
I wasn't referring to anyone posting on this blog by the passages I quoted, I don't know the state of your salvation but be sure God does. I don't know how that could be offensive to anyone. If you read those passages and are saved you would think it's right because it's what the Bible says, and it may challenge you. If you're unsaved how could it be offensive, all you could say is that it is possibly true because there are things in the Bible that don't make sense. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family can understand every word. That’s why you must be born again with God’s Spirit living within you (John 3:3). The moment you become part of God’s family, the Bible will begin to make sense.
Christian wrote: "In fact, I think that the gospel of fear is harmful to the kingdom of God. I believe that even though it is done in the name of God, that He is displeased. Can you see that we have two totally different views of the gospel= good news. The good news isn't that we are saved from hell. Do you agree with that?"
I agree the "good news" is that we rebelled against God but He made a way for our forgiveness. You wrote: "I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive." It's not my intention that you feel fear or guilt but that you repent from your sins and turn to Christ. It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to "believe" on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).
If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.
When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38). If repentance wasn’t necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)? With so many Scriptures speaking of the necessity of repentance for salvation, one can only suspect that those who preach salvation without repentance are strangers to repentance themselves, and thus strangers to true conversion.
You wrote: "I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive." It's not my intention that one feel fear or guilt but that one repents and turns to Christ.
I agree preaching the reality of hell, without using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin, can do a great deal of damage to the cause of the gospel. A sinner cannot conceive of the thought that God would send anyone to hell, as long as he is deceived into thinking that God’s standard of righteousness is the same as his. Paul "reasoned" with Felix regarding righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come (Acts 24:25). This is the righteousness that is of the Law and judgment by the Law. Felix "trembled" because he suddenly understood that his intemperance made him a guilty sinner in the sight of a holy God. The reality of hell suddenly became reasonable to him when the Law was used to bring the knowledge of sin.
Imagine if the police burst into your home, arrested you, and shouted, "You are going away for a long time!" Such conduct would probably leave you bewildered and angry. What they have done seems unreasonable. However, imagine if the law burst into your home and instead told you specifically why you were in trouble: "We have discovered 10,000 marijuana plants growing in your back yard. You are going away for a long time!" At least then you would understand why you are in trouble. Knowledge of the law you have transgressed furnished you with that understanding. It makes judgment reasonable.
Hell-fire preaching without use of the Law to show the sinner why God is angry with him will more than likely leave him bewildered and angry—for what he considers unreasonable punishment.
I'd like you to do something for me... make an effort to go to www.biblegateway.com and do a word search on "fear" and read all the passages that come up. It'll be worth your time.
Christian said: "I don't think it was your intention, but I found it funny that you infer that "kindness" and "sharing the gospel" are different. I think this is the mentality of many Christians unfortunately."
I intentionally made the differentiation because I meant by "kindness" an action in the natural realm i.e. giving to the poor, helping someone with their house payment. And "sharing the gospel" as action of the spiritual realm such as speaking about eternal things. (I'm sure there's a better way to word it, nevertheless.)
Christian said: "The Bible is not God. Although I find the teachings of the Bible valuable and an account of God's interactions with his creation, it is no manuel for life. With the misinterpretations we see on a daily basis"
John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Do I worship a pile of paper with a hard cover on it? No. But I do worship the God who wrote the Bible. It is the infallible word of God. The only misinterpretations are made by fallible man and not by the Bible. Along with scripture as a manual for living, we also have a conscience (con-with, science-knowledge). Your conscience tells you it's wrong when you lie, steal, murder.
This is an untrue statement in it's factuality: "I believe in annhialation. I don't know how to spell it, but I believe in it. If God sends people to hell...it is surely not eternal torture or punishment. It is a second death."
Shortly after you wrote warning 'cmorte' of hell saying: "Surely you will not continue your evil ways in hell, but instead be confined to a small cell that is burning with sulfur. It will burn off all of your flesh until you are gone and yet you will not really be gone... you will be in a tinier cell that is brurning with sulfur. This will continue until you are really really tiny and burning. And then it will start over."
So the burning off of your skin inside a tiny box is or isn't suffering? Let's face it, hell is a bad place, it is the eternal absence of God. The Bible says all(everyone everywhere) will worship God, even if they don't believe now, once they die and stand before God in judgment they will come to know what truth is. Even the people in hell will bow their knee to Him, they just won't get to be in His presence, ever.
There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture: Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6) Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27) Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)
There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:
"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46) "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51) "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17) "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9) "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9) "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
If you say "My God would never create hell." you're right he wouldn't because he couldn't. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of your imagination, a god you have created to suit yourself. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy.
I disagree. Your interp of hell has been taught to you well, but is not the view that all Christis hold. I don't mind that you have a different view from me Oscar, but you have said that if I don't believe like you then I will burn in hell for eternity. I think you should tread lightly with your judgments without knowing me.
But... thanks for putting so much time and effort into your comment. I pray that neither of us say anything that ends the conversation. I have my own judgments about why you believe like you do and what you think the implications of ignoring me would be on my soul, but I would ask that you choose your words carefully when commenting. I think it only polarizes Fundamentalists from the rest. Maybe I should take my own advice.
When it comes to Christians saying who is going to Hell (regardless of what you think that means) and who is not, I like the following (probalby butchered) statement I heard from Pastor Erwin McManus of Mosaic Life Church in LA:
"Jesus said he came into the world to save it, not to condemn it - so how dare I do something that even Jesus himself would not do."
Jesus preached life - not fear of death. We shouldn't think of Jesus as being sent by God to tell everyone who disagrees with him that they are wrong - we should think of Him as the only God who proved Himself real by coming to earth and the only God who reaches out to all of humanity and offers them life.
There's a whole lot more to that message than fear.
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In Luke 6:41,42 He speaks of seeing a speck in a brother’s eye. In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. (Christians don't go around calling people sinners and condemning them to hell, they simply warn people what the bible says about God's judgment.) Chuck Colson said, "True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t."
Oscar. You have redefined the argument. Are you justifying your judgment of me by disagreeing with Steve's interp. of McManus? What is your judgement of me? Am I going to hell or not? Do I worship an idol or not? You seem to be an expert on such matters and I'd liek to hear your opinion. Enough passive resistance. What say you?
Keith. I have been meaning to start a reading club for pastors who haven't learned to read so good. let me know what days will work best.
Have you lied? stolen? Committed adultery? Jesus said "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Mat. 5:28) If you said 'yes' to these then you're a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart and that's only three of the ten and you have to face God on judgment day. Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don't have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, "For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Perhaps you think that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court and said to the judge, "Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes," the judge would probably respond by saying, "You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it's because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes." The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God's "goodness," will be the very thing that will condemn them. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate. What a terrible place Hell must be. If you read in the newspaper that a man received a $5 fine for a crime, you could conclude that his crime was heinous. In the same way, we can catch a glimpse of how terrible sin must be in the sight of God by looking to the punishment given for it--eternal punishment. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love and laughter, so He will take those blessings away. Look honestly into the mirror of the Law, then seek the 'water' that cleanses every sin. If you don't believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn't the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God's promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar. Imagine if you reject the Savior, die in your sins and find out what I have told you is the Gospel truth? Then it will be too late, you will be judged for your sins. If that happens, and your eyes meet mine on the Day of Judgment, I'm free from your blood. I have told you the truth, but if you choose to ignore it your blood will be upon your own head...you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned "with knowledge." Isn't it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong?
To make clear what an incredible thing He has done for you in the Gospel, let's look again to civil law: You are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven't two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence...he lifts his gavel, when someone you don't even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what's more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you. His payment was evidence of his love.
That's what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. You are guilty, He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: "he was bruised for our iniquities . . . Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us...God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn't have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him -- death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.
Two men were offered a parachute while seated in a plane. The first man was told it would improve his flight, but the second man was informed he had to make a 25,000 foot jump. when the flight struck severe turbulence the first man took his parachute off because as far as he was concerned it didn't improve the flight. but during the same violent turbulence, the second man clung tighter to his parachute. Each man's motive for putting the parachute on determined whether or not they would keep it on. In the same way, the reason you should "put on the Lord Jesus Christ" shouldn't be to find peace, joy, true happiness, to have your marriage healed or your problems fixed, etc. (to have your flight improved), but it should be to escape the jump to come—because of the fact that you have to pass through the door of death. Then, when the flight gets bumpy (when problems come) you won't fall away from the faith.
What should you then do? Simply repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Don't put it off until tomorrow.
Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things you should prioritize in your life, it's not your health, your vocation, etc., it's your eternal salvation.
Think of a man who has committed adultery. His faithful wife is more than willing to take him back, so what is the attitude in which he should approach her? It should be one of tremendous humility, asking for forgiveness, and determining in his heart never to even think of committing adultery again.
That's how you should approach God. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. Then put your faith in Jesus Christ in the same way you would put your faith in a parachute. You don't just "believe" it will benefit you, you actually trust yourself to it by putting it on. Then, once you have made peace with God, read the Bible daily and obey what you read.
Christian and all others, I don't know the state of your soul, nor would I be your judge. This is a matter between you and God. I will continue to pray for you all for all things. This is my last post, thanks for your time.
I think that last post came word-for-word from that cheesy show on TBN with Kirk Cameron...
Oscar - while I agree with you on some of your points, I still think its quite a stretch to say that denying a literal Hell is calling God a liar and ensuring that you'll end up in Hell.
The way of Jesus involves repenting of your sins, accepting Christ's sacrifice, and living in the new life He offers. The belief required is a belief in Christ as the living son of God, not belief in Hell.
While I see your logic about calling God a liar if you say there is no Hell, that logic is completely dependant on your theology of Hell.
Personally, I think there's a literal Hell. However, I've studied the theology of those who don't believe in it and I find it quite compelling. It's not like some Christians just decided they didn't like the idea of Hell so one day they decided to throw out verses in the Bible that mention it. Their conclusions come from very careful exegesis and research into the nature of the very words you cited for Hell.
According to their theology, God is not claiming there is a literal Hell of fire and brimstone - so they wouldn't be calling him a liar by denying it exists.
Could they be wrong? Of course. But so could you or I. But I take comfort in the fact that my salvation does not rest on my interpretation of Hell.
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
That's not the verse I was citing anyway! I was referring to John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
If the mission of Jesus was not to pronounce judgement on the world, why should that be our mission?
so am i going to hell or eternal sleep? i may need sleeping pills cause lately its been rough to try to get some shut eye..as pa on little house on the prairie would say.....and christian, since i have looked lustfully at you whence in the tub of hot water, i shall poke mine own eyes out!
Oscar- I know how these things work. You just have to come back and check out our response eh? Well, I have changed my evil ways and have decided you're right. How can I find out more about this "Jesus" guy? Just kidding.
Actually I don't even know what to do with your post. I think that was it's point. Christians often will fill the air with their thoughts and opinions and then stamp it with scripture in an attempt to end the copnversation an "win". This is ironically, not "the way of the master".
I appreciate your prayers and admit that I need them more than most people. So thanks.
Steve. I like you. Even though you are Baptist, you are allright. You probably won't make it to heaven, but you'll come as close as a person can.
Cmort- I don't know who you are, but I am praying for you. Hell isn't a party. It doesn't matter what drugs you want to do to avoid the pain and suffering that God will inflict on your guilty soul, there is no way for you to be saved with that kind of attitude. Hell is like a metaphor. It is very similar to something and can be related to something more understandable. By using this metaphor, others can see things my way. Only when a person sees things my way will he be saved from the shrinking and burning and loud rap music. I am praying for you guys today and can't wait to meet the new ones. I'll see you Saturday. Do you smoke cigars? Cigars are like your life... a slow burn until in the end you burn your lips. That is just a taste of what hell is like cmort. Also, if you smoke a cigar, you will go to hell.
I won't even comment on you calling me a Baptist... except I did just comment on it... oh well. If I didn't know you to be incredibly witty, I might be offended.
Oscar: You wrote... I intentionally made the differentiation because I meant by "kindness" an action in the natural realm i.e. giving to the poor, helping someone with their house payment. And "sharing the gospel" as action of the spiritual realm such as speaking about eternal things. (I'm sure there's a better way to word it, nevertheless.) These "acts of kindness" as you say, ARE the gospel! The WAY of JESUS is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give if you have the means! They go HAND-in-HAND, man. If you are making a distinction you are removing the essence of God's mission for us! I don't like reading your posts because they are full of rhetoric and no real responses. Stop the maddness, please. Christian, what I find amazing is that while I'm reading your posts I'm totally cracking up, because I can sense your sarcasm, whit, and lovely charm...yet this guy Oscar totally takes every word seriously! Oscar, One final thought: Life is short, you should take a deep breath and laugh a little, listen to some indigo girls and eat a big fat burger with some friends.
Jodi you said: "These "acts of kindness" as you say, ARE the gospel! The WAY of JESUS is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give if you have the means!" about my earlier comment. Yes you're right... but why stop at feeding the poor when you can also share everlasting life with them? Stop and think for a moment... why do you feed a man? So that he might live. Why do you share the gospel with him? So that he might live eternally.
As for your excellent judgment of my laidbackness... it may be hard to tell by my posts because of my concern for the lost but nevertheless... I honestly don't have much competition there. I have really low blood pressure! My friends say I'm the most laid back person they know, but that's just their word, what do they know anyway. My girlfriend (who has opened for Indigo Girls) says it's because I don't care about money but she just says that because I tithe like 10% to the church, 30%+ to the poor (whether it be helping a neighbor with a car payment or feeding a hitchhiker or whatever) or helping my Buddhist brother or my single parent/unmarried sister with the bills or funding my little bros missionary trips, and about 5% to study resources and trips for myself and the youth group, and only make around 20K a year and work 72 hrs a week. Of course I'm probably so uptight because I only worked for 6 months this year and spent the rest of the time at a beach in Australia surfing, playing lacrosse and working 6-8 hours a week on saddles... talk about stressful! (maybe I just suck at sarcasm) Or maybe I'm stressed because I only work on average 9 months a year and spend the rest of the time traveling, camping, fishing, diving, surfing, hiking, climbing, kayaking... you know all that fun stuff normal people wish they could do but can't because they have 9-5 jobs with bosses.
And thanks for the advice... I eat gigantic bacon cheeseburgers at least three times a week (the best beef is raised in SD don't ya know, especially mine because the beef and pork are both raised cornfed and hormone free 2 miles from my house.)
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with the following:
"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) "Everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46) "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51) "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17) "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9) "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thess. 1:9) "Eternal fire... the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13) Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
Sounds like hell doesn't it? Seriously though Christian did get it right saying it's someplace you don't want to be. You might be wondering how or why someone would go to hell? You will have to bear with me for the answer(this might sound simple, but really it is):
-A man, who trusts a parachute to save him, is saved from the consequences of breaking the law of gravity because he put on a parachute. A man, who refuses to trust in a parachute, doesn't perish because he refused it. He perishes primarily because he transgressed the law of gravity. Had he put it on, he would have been saved.
If you refuse to "believe" (the Greek word for "believe" in the NT is 'pistos' which means "trust")... if you refuse to believe in the Savior, you will perish, not because you didn't "believe," but because you transgressed the Law of God. Again, God won't punish you for not trusting in His mercy. He will punish you because you are a liar, a thief, and an adulterer at heart.-
That illustration helped me understand that God will not send me to Hell for not believing in Him. I would go to Hell for breaking the ten commandments, God's Holy Law. In fact, God will not send someone to Hell. A judge doesn't send a criminal to prison. His crimes send him there.
For the sake of keeping off everyone's nerves because of my long posts... you can find out how God paid your fine and freed you from the Law. Go to www.needgod.com go through the survey, you'll come across some of the same stuff I've mentioned above and more.
33 comments:
I HATE IT. Now I'm the first person to say, "my, hate is an awefully strong word to use..." but in this case it fits the bill. I want it removed from the web! It's possibly the most offensive TRACT I've ever seen. It's rediculous in fact!
When I read your comment and look at your picture, I realize I'm dealing with a very pissed off woman. Just kidding.
I agree. I don't like the ticker either. I think it is in poor taste. At best it is a narrow sighted view of the gospel.
Christian.
I was thinking my picture looks more like I'm drugs! Or like I just got back from the dentist:) I wasn't really pissed, just using inflamitory language to get my point accross, but you said it much more peacefully: It's in poor taste. At best it is a narrow sighted view of the gospel.
P.S. How's you "gas" situation????
Christian,
Hey did you get my email? I sent an email to the sbc email that you have on your blog profile - about the party as well as about having you guys over for din-din. get back to me.
And please remove the ticker.
Peace,
Wayne
So... how does the ticker keep track?
I mean, what if i'm reading your weblog while i'm plowing through a crowd of American Idol fans in my Escalade?
It's a very comlicated system. I had to download something that connected me to all the local police in every city of the world. It's a few seconds behind the "actual" numbers, but for the most part pretty accurate. There are some other nuances (is that how you spell that?) that are really technologically comlicated that I don't have the time or teaching capabilities to explain to you. I don't want to waist valuable evangelism time on that anyways.
If the guy who wrote the coding for the ticker were to die, would the ticker stop?
ha, ha... I think I'll build a ticker that keeps track of the number of people who are offended(1Cor.2:14) by this ticker and the thought of sin and death. In reality it's closer to 155,000 people that die a day anyway.
"At best it is a narrow sighted view of the gospel."
Have you ever gotten a metal sliver in your finger? It hurts, doesn't it. The narrowest sliver can cause one to stop and examine his hand.
While I could care less if you have the ticker or not I think it's bold of you to put it up in light of your friends views. It doesn't take a gimic to preach the gospel, the Bible's all you need as I'm sure you know. As long as you preach Christ and Him crucified I rejoice. Sometimes, however, it can take a little poke to get a Christian to act out their faith(whether it be an act of kindness or sharing the gospel) and if this ticker makes someone reflect on the importance of life and time then it's done it's job. I'm quite sure some of you will have clever things to say in reply and may I say it's been a pleasure conversing with people of such candid humor.
And yes you did spell "nuances" correctly.
What is hell? Is it something you can enter?
and doest the ticker keep running while i'm leaving a comment or will it start over again?
if it starts over again, does that mean we'll all have a second chance, even after death, to accept Christ?
What worries me is that the ticker goes up by tenths. One hundred twenty seven point three people died while i was reading your weblog???
Now that just don't make no sense.
Hey Oscar -- what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible based on hypocritical, hateful, judgmental ways scripture has been used in some American churches? It the Bible still all i need?
See, most people in this country who behave as though they want nothing to do with Christ and His message of love, grace and peace, are either devout churchgoers who use the Bible to explain their lifestyles, or they're disillusioned seekers who want nothing to do with the hypocrisy and hate of the first group.
Quoting John 3:16 at these people will get you condescending smiles from both groups, probably.
Oh!!! "gimic" = "gimmick".
And Rabbit: can we start a conversation about oblivion? Maybe hell is the final exit. Sweet -- if anyone is part of a Christian Death Metal band, they can use that as a lyric.
i really hate seeing how many people got into hell before me. i hate being last. i better hurry.
"Quoting John 3:16 at these people will get you condescending smiles from both groups, probably."
You're right it makes someone feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know their loved. Nevertheless, salvation comes through repentance. How will someone see their need for the savior if they don't see their need for a savior? Check out the book of Acts. Many people think that since Peter preached grace that that's what the church today must do. However, Peter was speaking to Israel who already knew the Law. In fact no-one knew the Law better than the Jews, they were experts. They already knew they had sinned against a Holy God but were still trying to justify themselves by their works. All Peter had to do was tell them the good news of the risen Christ; because the blood of Christ is the only payment for sins. Remember Jesus said, "no-one comes to the Father but by me" To say there is another way to Heaven is to call God a liar.
juanito said: "what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible based on hypocritical, hateful, judgmental ways scripture has been used in some American churches? It the Bible still all i need?"
Thankfully there are Christians God has gifted to help us reach the lost, for example I really like and support Mark Cahill's ministry. Yes the Bible is all you need and should be used to judge all other works. For example if you don't think Mark Cahill has a Biblically accurate viewpoint you can refer to scripture and find out.
Avoiding the Bible because of how other people misused it(even Hitler used the Bible) described me to the letter before I became a Christian. After coming to a true knowledge of sin, repenting, and giving my life to Christ(in a nutshell born-again) I started reading my Bible and realized you have to be careful who you call Christian. If someone is using scripture in a "hypocritical, hateful, judgmental way" there's two things happening: 1)they don't know how to use scripture 2)they're not a Christian.
Don't be like one who says: "Jesus didn’t condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery, but condemned those who judged her. Therefore you shouldn’t judge others."
The Christian is not "judging others" but simply telling the world of God’s judgment —that God (not the Christian) has judged all the world as being guilty before Him (Romans 3:19,23). Jesus was able to offer that woman forgiveness for her sin, be-cause He was on His way to die on the cross for her. She acknowledged Him as "Lord," but He still told her, "Go, and sin no more." If she didn’t repent, she would perish.
Can you see that a Christian doesn't judge someone, he only warns others of God's judgment? Yes we need to be Biblical in how we present the gospel because the natural man doesn't know spiritual things, they're foolish to him. Look at the words used in Scripture: “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...The god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not ...But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them. . . Having their understanding darkened. . . because of the blindness of their heart ...Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
With these thoughts in mind, read 2 Timothy 2:24–26 and look at the adjectives used by Paul to describe the attitude we are to have with sinners: “must not strive...be gentle...patient ...in meekness.” Just as it is unreasonable to be impatient with a blind man, so it is with the sinner. If a blind man walked in the room and stumbled over the coffee table you wouldn't say "watch where you're going stupid blind man!" You'd have a loving attitude toward him instead, wouldn't you? Likewise with the spiritually blind.
If the same blind man were walking toward a cliff with a shear thousand foot drop would you go up and say "hi, how are you, you should walk this direction. It's really much nicer and happier and it'll make you smile, just look at me I'm much better off."? No, you'd warn him about the cliff and the drop wouldn't you?
In the late 1980s, TV commercials in the U.S. asked, "What goes through the mind of a driver who is not wearing a seat belt in a head-on collision?" Then they showed a crash dummy having its head crushed by a steering wheel in a collision, and said, "The steering wheel!" Those were scare tactics, but no one complained because they were legitimate scare tactics. That’s what happens in a head-on collision if you are foolish enough to not put on a seat belt. To warn of hell is fearful, but it is absolutely legitimate, because the Bible says that it is a fearful thing for a sinner to fall into the hands of the living God.
sorry for the long post I'll try to keep it much shorter in the future. Check out my latest posts starting with "Is Hell for real?" and moving up to "How to Confront Sinners" for more on the subject of sin, hell, and judgment. But don't take my word for it search the Scriptures and see.
Shalomy, Oscar
"Hey Oscar -- what can i do to share the gospel to people who are strongly opposed to the Bible"
I feel I didn't address this issue as well as I should as I can see juanito, you have a compassion for the lost. It's easier if you remember we can't save anyone, only God can and from scripture we know no-one comes to the Father unless He calls him. It's always harder to share the gospel with someone who's already tried Jesus out and had a bad experience, or think they are already saved but follow a false doctrine such as JW, LDS. You can avoid talking about Jesus, religion, evolution, by using the ten commandments and telling them what the Bible says about God's judgment. If their not open to talking about spiritual things then you won't be able to force it on them. In the words of C.S. Lewis "no-one was ever converted by an arguement."
Well now. Who would have ever thought that one little ticker could cause so much controversy. I was talking to juanito today about it. I think he is smart. I really apologize to anybody that was genuinely offended.
Oscar. Again, I thank you for being a part of our discussion. Thanks for having thick skin to be able to withstand our sarcastic comments and ideas.
I'll comment on a few things.
1. Oscar. you quoted 1 Cornith. 2:14. Here is the scripture you quoted.
"14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ".
It's hard for me to believe that you think that you are sooo right and that anybody that disagrees with you is the type of person Paul is speaking of. In essence, you are saying that those that disagree with you on this blog do not have the Spirit. Is this true?
Here is my perspective on your evangelism ideaology/methodology/philosophy/
etc. I would not view the ticker I had up as the things of the Spirit. In fact, I think that the gospel of fear is harmful to the kingdom of God. I believe that even though it is done in the name of God, that He is displeased. Can you see that we have two totally different views of the gospel= good news. The good news isn't that we are saved from hell. Do you agree with that?
Also, you said this..."Sometimes, however, it can take a little poke to get a Christian to act out their faith(whether it be an act of kindness or sharing the gospel) and if this ticker makes someone reflect on the importance of life and time then it's done it's job".
I don't think it was your intention, but I found it funny that you infer that "kindness" and "sharing the gospel" are different. I think this is the mentality of many Christians unfortunately.
I'll post more in a second, but since Keith can't read good, I don't want this to be too long. If I had pictures, I'd put them in so you caould follow better Keith.
Keith... about hell. I believe in annhialation. I don't know how to spell it, but I believe in it. If God sends people to hell, (let's not get tied up in semantics of how one gets there), but if God sends people to hell, it is surely not eternal torture or punishment. It is a second death.
Juanito. You are correct. Ther cannot be a fraction of a person who has died. Just another reason why we shouldn't use the ticker. It's unbiblical. If something is not truthful, it must be from Satan... since the ticker is not fully true, it must be satanic.
Also, I like your comment about condescending smiles. I can envision these smiles and in fact have gotten them before. I suppose it's my turn in life to be giving them for a while.
cmort- welcome to the conversation. Hell is no party! Surely you will not continue your evil ways in hell, but instead be confined to a small cell that is burning with sulfur. It will burn off all of your flesh until you are gone and yet you will not really be gone... you will be in a tinier cell that is brurning with sulfur. This will continue until you are really really tiny and burning. And then it will start over. Want to change your mind about going to hell now. Get right with the Lord.
One final comment that I hope will be really controversial and bring back lots of comments.
I think that the evangelical church (including me)is guilty of idolotry. The Bible is not God. Although I find the teachings of the Bible valuable and an account of God's interactions with his creation, it is no manuel for life. With the misinterpretations we see on a daily basis... even on this site... I am skeptical of any groups take on scripture. Of course I have adopted my own view on spiritual matters from the scriptures, but any time a group gets together and says, "This is what the scriptures mean here", I wonder what their motives are. POwer has corrupted the Church and will continue to corrupt the church until the groom returns. I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive. I think God does too and I could proof text scripture to back up my point, but I think we all know scripture here pretty well. so, come to my side and you will see clearly. or will you...
Christian wrote: "It's hard for me to believe that you think that you are sooo right and that anybody that disagrees with you is the type of person Paul is speaking of. In essence, you are saying that those that disagree with you on this blog do not have the Spirit. Is this true?"
I wasn't referring to anyone posting on this blog by the passages I quoted, I don't know the state of your salvation but be sure God does. I don't know how that could be offensive to anyone. If you read those passages and are saved you would think it's right because it's what the Bible says, and it may challenge you. If you're unsaved how could it be offensive, all you could say is that it is possibly true because there are things in the Bible that don't make sense. Most Americans would find it difficult to understand the Chinese language. However, a child who is born into a Chinese family can understand every word. That’s why you must be born again with God’s Spirit living within you (John 3:3). The moment you become part of God’s family, the Bible will begin to make sense.
Christian wrote: "In fact, I think that the gospel of fear is harmful to the kingdom of God. I believe that even though it is done in the name of God, that He is displeased. Can you see that we have two totally different views of the gospel= good news. The good news isn't that we are saved from hell. Do you agree with that?"
I agree the "good news" is that we rebelled against God but He made a way for our forgiveness.
You wrote: "I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive." It's not my intention that you feel fear or guilt but that you repent from your sins and turn to Christ. It is true that there are numerous Bible verses that speak of the promise of salvation, with no mention of repentance. These merely say to "believe" on Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9). However, the Bible makes it clear that God is holy and man is sinful, and that sin makes a separation between the two (Isaiah 59:1,2). Without repentance from sin, wicked men cannot have fellowship with a holy God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1) and until we forsake them through repentance, we cannot be made alive in Christ.
The Scriptures speak of "repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18). We turn from sin to the Savior. This is why Paul preached "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). The first public word Jesus preached was "repent" (Matthew 4:17). John the Baptist began his ministry the same way (Matthew 3:2). Jesus told His hearers that without repentance, they would perish (Luke 13:3).
If belief is all that is necessary for salvation, then the logical conclusion is that one need never repent. However, the Bible tells us that a false convert "believes" and yet is not saved (Luke 8:13); he remains a "worker of iniquity." Look at the warning of Scripture: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6). The Scriptures also say, "He that covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes them [repentance] shall have mercy" (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus said that there was joy in heaven over one sinner who "repents" (Luke 15:10). If there is no repentance, there is no joy because there is no salvation.
When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he commanded his hearers to repent "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there is no remission of sins; we are still under His wrath. Peter further said, "Repent . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3:19). We cannot be "converted" unless we repent. God Himself "commands all men everywhere [leaving no exceptions] to repent" (Acts 17:30). Peter said a similar thing at Pentecost: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you" (Acts 2:38).
If repentance wasn’t necessary for salvation, why then did Jesus command that repentance be preached to all nations (Luke 24:47)? With so many Scriptures speaking of the necessity of repentance for salvation, one can only suspect that those who preach salvation without repentance are strangers to repentance themselves, and thus strangers to true conversion.
You wrote: "I find fear and guilt evangelism repulsive." It's not my intention that one feel fear or guilt but that one repents and turns to Christ.
I agree preaching the reality of hell, without using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin, can do a great deal of damage to the cause of the gospel. A sinner cannot conceive of the thought that God would send anyone to hell, as long as he is deceived into thinking that God’s standard of righteousness is the same as his. Paul "reasoned" with Felix regarding righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come (Acts 24:25). This is the righteousness that is of the Law and judgment by the Law. Felix "trembled" because he suddenly understood that his intemperance made him a guilty sinner in the sight of a holy God. The reality of hell suddenly became reasonable to him when the Law was used to bring the knowledge of sin.
Imagine if the police burst into your home, arrested you, and shouted, "You are going away for a long time!" Such conduct would probably leave you bewildered and angry. What they have done seems unreasonable. However, imagine if the law burst into your home and instead told you specifically why you were in trouble: "We have discovered 10,000 marijuana plants growing in your back yard. You are going away for a long time!" At least then you would understand why you are in trouble. Knowledge of the law you have transgressed furnished you with that understanding. It makes judgment reasonable.
Hell-fire preaching without use of the Law to show the sinner why God is angry with him will more than likely leave him bewildered and angry—for what he considers unreasonable punishment.
I'd like you to do something for me... make an effort to go to www.biblegateway.com and do a word search on "fear" and read all the passages that come up. It'll be worth your time.
Christian said: "I don't think it was your intention, but I found it funny that you infer that "kindness" and "sharing the gospel" are different. I think this is the mentality of many Christians unfortunately."
I intentionally made the differentiation because I meant by "kindness" an action in the natural realm i.e. giving to the poor, helping someone with their house payment. And "sharing the gospel" as action of the spiritual realm such as speaking about eternal things. (I'm sure there's a better way to word it, nevertheless.)
Christian said: "The Bible is not God. Although I find the teachings of the Bible valuable and an account of God's interactions with his creation, it is no manuel for life. With the misinterpretations we see on a daily basis"
John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Do I worship a pile of paper with a hard cover on it? No. But I do worship the God who wrote the Bible. It is the infallible word of God. The only misinterpretations are made by fallible man and not by the Bible. Along with scripture as a manual for living, we also have a conscience (con-with, science-knowledge). Your conscience tells you it's wrong when you lie, steal, murder.
This is an untrue statement in it's factuality: "I believe in annhialation. I don't know how to spell it, but I believe in it. If God sends people to hell...it is surely not eternal torture or punishment. It is a second death."
Shortly after you wrote warning 'cmorte' of hell saying: "Surely you will not continue your evil ways in hell, but instead be confined to a small cell that is burning with sulfur. It will burn off all of your flesh until you are gone and yet you will not really be gone... you will be in a tinier cell that is brurning with sulfur. This will continue until you are really really tiny and burning. And then it will start over."
So the burning off of your skin inside a tiny box is or isn't suffering? Let's face it, hell is a bad place, it is the eternal absence of God. The Bible says all(everyone everywhere) will worship God, even if they don't believe now, once they die and stand before God in judgment they will come to know what truth is. Even the people in hell will bow their knee to Him, they just won't get to be in His presence, ever.
There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)
There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:
"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
"Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
If you say "My God would never create hell." you're right he wouldn't because he couldn't. He doesn’t exist. He is a figment of your imagination, a god you have created to suit yourself. It’s called "idolatry," and it’s the oldest sin in the Book. Idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of God. The one true God, however, could and did create hell for those who reject His mercy.
So much for keeping my comments short!
God bless,
Oscar
I disagree. Your interp of hell has been taught to you well, but is not the view that all Christis hold. I don't mind that you have a different view from me Oscar, but you have said that if I don't believe like you then I will burn in hell for eternity. I think you should tread lightly with your judgments without knowing me.
But... thanks for putting so much time and effort into your comment. I pray that neither of us say anything that ends the conversation. I have my own judgments about why you believe like you do and what you think the implications of ignoring me would be on my soul, but I would ask that you choose your words carefully when commenting. I think it only polarizes Fundamentalists from the rest. Maybe I should take my own advice.
When it comes to Christians saying who is going to Hell (regardless of what you think that means) and who is not, I like the following (probalby butchered) statement I heard from Pastor Erwin McManus of Mosaic Life Church in LA:
"Jesus said he came into the world to save it, not to condemn it - so how dare I do something that even Jesus himself would not do."
Jesus preached life - not fear of death. We shouldn't think of Jesus as being sent by God to tell everyone who disagrees with him that they are wrong - we should think of Him as the only God who proved Himself real by coming to earth and the only God who reaches out to all of humanity and offers them life.
There's a whole lot more to that message than fear.
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In Luke 6:41,42 He speaks of seeing a speck in a brother’s eye. In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. (Christians don't go around calling people sinners and condemning them to hell, they simply warn people what the bible says about God's judgment.)
Chuck Colson said, "True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t."
Christian,
let me know when the book gets published. i'll put it on my bookshelf. Until then, shorten the posts, they're longer than hell.
How'd you like that pun?
Oscar. You have redefined the argument. Are you justifying your judgment of me by disagreeing with Steve's interp. of McManus? What is your judgement of me? Am I going to hell or not? Do I worship an idol or not? You seem to be an expert on such matters and I'd liek to hear your opinion. Enough passive resistance. What say you?
Keith. I have been meaning to start a reading club for pastors who haven't learned to read so good. let me know what days will work best.
Have you lied? stolen? Committed adultery? Jesus said "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Mat. 5:28) If you said 'yes' to these then you're a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart and that's only three of the ten and you have to face God on judgment day. Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don't have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, "For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." Perhaps you think that God is good and will therefore overlook your sins. But if you were guilty of terrible crimes in a civil court and said to the judge, "Judge, I am guilty but I believe that you are a good man and will therefore overlook my crimes," the judge would probably respond by saying, "You are right about one thing; I am a good man, and it's because of my goodness that I am going to see that justice is done, that you are punished for your crimes." The very thing that many are hoping will save them on Judgment Day, God's "goodness," will be the very thing that will condemn them. If God is good, He should punish murderers. liars, thieves, etc., and Hell will be their dreadful fate.
What a terrible place Hell must be. If you read in the newspaper that a man received a $5 fine for a crime, you could conclude that his crime was heinous. In the same way, we can catch a glimpse of how terrible sin must be in the sight of God by looking to the punishment given for it--eternal punishment. Ungrateful humanity never bothers to thank God for His wonderful blessings of color, light, food, joy, beauty, love and laughter, so He will take those blessings away. Look honestly into the mirror of the Law, then seek the 'water' that cleanses every sin. If you don't believe what I am saying about the reality of Hell, it means you think God is corrupt (that He hasn't the moral backbone to seek justice), that Jesus was a liar, that the Apostles were false witnesses, that God's promises are nothing but prefabricated lies, and there is no greater insult to God than to call Him a liar. Imagine if you reject the Savior, die in your sins and find out what I have told you is the Gospel truth? Then it will be too late, you will be judged for your sins. If that happens, and your eyes meet mine on the Day of Judgment, I'm free from your blood. I have told you the truth, but if you choose to ignore it your blood will be upon your own head...you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, you have sinned "with knowledge." Isn't it true that every time you lied, stole, lusted, etc., you did it with knowledge that it was wrong?
To make clear what an incredible thing He has done for you in the Gospel, let's look again to civil law: You are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven't two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence...he lifts his gavel, when someone you don't even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what's more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you. His payment was evidence of his love.
That's what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. You are guilty, He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: "he was bruised for our iniquities . . . Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us...God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn't have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him -- death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.
Two men were offered a parachute while seated in a plane. The first man was told it would improve his flight, but the second man was informed he had to make a 25,000 foot jump. when the flight struck severe turbulence the first man took his parachute off because as far as he was concerned it didn't improve the flight. but during the same violent turbulence, the second man clung tighter to his parachute. Each man's motive for putting the parachute on determined whether or not they would keep it on. In the same way, the reason you should "put on the Lord Jesus Christ" shouldn't be to find peace, joy, true happiness, to have your marriage healed or your problems fixed, etc. (to have your flight improved), but it should be to escape the jump to come—because of the fact that you have to pass through the door of death. Then, when the flight gets bumpy (when problems come) you won't fall away from the faith.
What should you then do? Simply repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. Don't put it off until tomorrow.
Would you sell an eye for a million dollars? How about both for $20 million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless to you, yet they are merely the windows of your soul. Your life (your soul) is of such value, Jesus said that you should despise the value of your eye compared to it. He said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you, for it is better to enter Heaven blind than to go to Hell seeing. In other words, of all the things you should prioritize in your life, it's not your health, your vocation, etc., it's your eternal salvation.
Think of a man who has committed adultery. His faithful wife is more than willing to take him back, so what is the attitude in which he should approach her? It should be one of tremendous humility, asking for forgiveness, and determining in his heart never to even think of committing adultery again.
That's how you should approach God. If you are not sure how to pray, read Psalm 51 and make it your prayer. Then put your faith in Jesus Christ in the same way you would put your faith in a parachute. You don't just "believe" it will benefit you, you actually trust yourself to it by putting it on. Then, once you have made peace with God, read the Bible daily and obey what you read.
Christian and all others, I don't know the state of your soul, nor would I be your judge. This is a matter between you and God. I will continue to pray for you all for all things. This is my last post, thanks for your time.
Shalomy,
Oscar
I think that last post came word-for-word from that cheesy show on TBN with Kirk Cameron...
Oscar - while I agree with you on some of your points, I still think its quite a stretch to say that denying a literal Hell is calling God a liar and ensuring that you'll end up in Hell.
The way of Jesus involves repenting of your sins, accepting Christ's sacrifice, and living in the new life He offers. The belief required is a belief in Christ as the living son of God, not belief in Hell.
While I see your logic about calling God a liar if you say there is no Hell, that logic is completely dependant on your theology of Hell.
Personally, I think there's a literal Hell. However, I've studied the theology of those who don't believe in it and I find it quite compelling. It's not like some Christians just decided they didn't like the idea of Hell so one day they decided to throw out verses in the Bible that mention it. Their conclusions come from very careful exegesis and research into the nature of the very words you cited for Hell.
According to their theology, God is not claiming there is a literal Hell of fire and brimstone - so they wouldn't be calling him a liar by denying it exists.
Could they be wrong? Of course. But so could you or I. But I take comfort in the fact that my salvation does not rest on my interpretation of Hell.
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
That's not the verse I was citing anyway! I was referring to John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
If the mission of Jesus was not to pronounce judgement on the world, why should that be our mission?
so am i going to hell or eternal sleep? i may need sleeping pills cause lately its been rough to try to get some shut eye..as pa on little house on the prairie would say.....and christian, since i have looked lustfully at you whence in the tub of hot water, i shall poke mine own eyes out!
Oscar- I know how these things work. You just have to come back and check out our response eh? Well, I have changed my evil ways and have decided you're right. How can I find out more about this "Jesus" guy? Just kidding.
Actually I don't even know what to do with your post. I think that was it's point. Christians often will fill the air with their thoughts and opinions and then stamp it with scripture in an attempt to end the copnversation an "win". This is ironically, not "the way of the master".
I appreciate your prayers and admit that I need them more than most people. So thanks.
Steve. I like you. Even though you are Baptist, you are allright. You probably won't make it to heaven, but you'll come as close as a person can.
Cmort- I don't know who you are, but I am praying for you. Hell isn't a party. It doesn't matter what drugs you want to do to avoid the pain and suffering that God will inflict on your guilty soul, there is no way for you to be saved with that kind of attitude. Hell is like a metaphor. It is very similar to something and can be related to something more understandable. By using this metaphor, others can see things my way. Only when a person sees things my way will he be saved from the shrinking and burning and loud rap music. I am praying for you guys today and can't wait to meet the new ones. I'll see you Saturday. Do you smoke cigars? Cigars are like your life... a slow burn until in the end you burn your lips. That is just a taste of what hell is like cmort. Also, if you smoke a cigar, you will go to hell.
Christian,
I won't even comment on you calling me a Baptist... except I did just comment on it... oh well. If I didn't know you to be incredibly witty, I might be offended.
Oscar:
You wrote...
I intentionally made the differentiation because I meant by "kindness" an action in the natural realm i.e. giving to the poor, helping someone with their house payment. And "sharing the gospel" as action of the spiritual realm such as speaking about eternal things. (I'm sure there's a better way to word it, nevertheless.)
These "acts of kindness" as you say, ARE the gospel! The WAY of JESUS is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give if you have the means! They go HAND-in-HAND, man. If you are making a distinction you are removing the essence of God's mission for us!
I don't like reading your posts because they are full of rhetoric and no real responses. Stop the maddness, please.
Christian, what I find amazing is that while I'm reading your posts I'm totally cracking up, because I can sense your sarcasm, whit, and lovely charm...yet this guy Oscar totally takes every word seriously!
Oscar,
One final thought: Life is short, you should take a deep breath and laugh a little, listen to some indigo girls and eat a big fat burger with some friends.
Jodi you said: "These "acts of kindness" as you say, ARE the gospel! The WAY of JESUS is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, give if you have the means!" about my earlier comment. Yes you're right... but why stop at feeding the poor when you can also share everlasting life with them? Stop and think for a moment... why do you feed a man? So that he might live. Why do you share the gospel with him? So that he might live eternally.
As for your excellent judgment of my laidbackness... it may be hard to tell by my posts because of my concern for the lost but nevertheless... I honestly don't have much competition there. I have really low blood pressure! My friends say I'm the most laid back person they know, but that's just their word, what do they know anyway. My girlfriend (who has opened for Indigo Girls) says it's because I don't care about money but she just says that because I tithe like 10% to the church, 30%+ to the poor (whether it be helping a neighbor with a car payment or feeding a hitchhiker or whatever) or helping my Buddhist brother or my single parent/unmarried sister with the bills or funding my little bros missionary trips, and about 5% to study resources and trips for myself and the youth group, and only make around 20K a year and work 72 hrs a week. Of course I'm probably so uptight because I only worked for 6 months this year and spent the rest of the time at a beach in Australia surfing, playing lacrosse and working 6-8 hours a week on saddles... talk about stressful! (maybe I just suck at sarcasm) Or maybe I'm stressed because I only work on average 9 months a year and spend the rest of the time traveling, camping, fishing, diving, surfing, hiking, climbing, kayaking... you know all that fun stuff normal people wish they could do but can't because they have 9-5 jobs with bosses.
And thanks for the advice... I eat gigantic bacon cheeseburgers at least three times a week (the best beef is raised in SD don't ya know, especially mine because the beef and pork are both raised cornfed and hormone free 2 miles from my house.)
This ones for cmorte.
The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with the following:
"Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
"Everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46)
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
"Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
"Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
"Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thess. 1:9)
"Eternal fire... the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone... the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
Sounds like hell doesn't it? Seriously though Christian did get it right saying it's someplace you don't want to be. You might be wondering how or why someone would go to hell? You will have to bear with me for the answer(this might sound simple, but really it is):
-A man, who trusts a parachute to save him, is saved from the consequences of breaking the law of gravity because he put on a parachute. A man, who refuses to trust in a parachute, doesn't perish because he refused it. He perishes primarily because he transgressed the law of gravity. Had he put it on, he would have been saved.
If you refuse to "believe" (the Greek word for "believe" in the NT is 'pistos' which means "trust")... if you refuse to believe in the Savior, you will perish, not because you didn't "believe," but because you transgressed the Law of God. Again, God won't punish you for not trusting in His mercy. He will punish you because you are a liar, a thief, and an adulterer at heart.-
That illustration helped me understand that God will not send me to Hell for not believing in Him. I would go to Hell for breaking the ten commandments, God's Holy Law. In fact, God will not send someone to Hell. A judge doesn't send a criminal to prison. His crimes send him there.
For the sake of keeping off everyone's nerves because of my long posts... you can find out how God paid your fine and freed you from the Law. Go to www.needgod.com go through the survey, you'll come across some of the same stuff I've mentioned above and more.
Have we kicked this dead horse enough? Two different paradigms is the crux of our problem.
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