Recently, Oscar, commented on my post about apologetics. Here
He posted several of his "witnessing tools" about an evangelist named Ray Comfort. I found an article on Ray and thoguht I'd post it to drum up some discussion. "Here is a review by Youth Worker Journal.
"Our review of “The Way of the Master” published in our July/August issueThe Way of the MasterBasic Training CourseKirk Cameron and Ray ComfortGenesis Publishing GroupRay Comfort means well, and he’s legitimately frustrated by the idea that only an estimated 2 percent of Christians regularly share their faith with nonbelievers. But his frustration has reached the boiling point, so he repeatedly hammers viewers over the head with images of people burning in hell to goose us into becoming evangelistic storm troopers who can build friendships with strangers and deliver the gospel message “in minutes.”Even with the assistance of youthful-looking Kirk Cameron (from the Left Behind movies) and decent production values (the TV show the DVD series is based on won an award from National Religious Broadcasters), Comfort takes an old-school, “turn-or-burn” approach that relies on guilt and shame. He even warns that those of us who don’t evangelize his way may spend eternity in hell ourselves!Sure, evangelism is important. And for most of us it is sorely neglected. But can somebody out there douse Comfort with a fire extinguisher and give us a more redemptive way to share our faith? —PA
Here's the link.
17 comments:
for the most part, I'm not an evangelical. I believe Christ's ultimate commandment is to love God and others. I think there's a place for evangelism and evangelists within christiandome but believe the modern era took evangelism to an extreme, case in point by this author who is claiming that christians who don't do it his way will be joining the other "goats" in hell. I don't find any support for this position in the scriptures I read.
Christian,
Hey interesting post. I think Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort are serious nut-jobs.
Christians sharing their faith is important. But what do we share? Oh I wish I had more time right now to give a more thoughtful response.
Anyway, thank you for the gentle gentle prodding about my blog. I will try to have something new soon. I have been so bussy with school. But I do have some things I want to get out there soon.
Congrats on the job! I would love to hang out soon and talk more about it. If you guys cant come to the party next saturday maybe we could have you over for dinner sometime during the week.
Peace,
Wayne
This is not Hell-fire preaching; use of the Law is the way of bringing the conviction of sin to the proud self-righteous "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God," (Rom. 3:19). Take a closer look at scripture before you condemn or approve what you read.
"Ask Paul why the Law was given. Here is his answer, ‘That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become
guilty before God’ (Romans 3:19). The Law stops every man’s mouth. I can always tell a man who is near the kingdom of God; his
mouth is stopped. This, then, is why God gives us the Law—to show us ourselves in our true colors." D.L. Moody
John Wesley said to a friend, in writing to a young evangelist, “Preach 90 percent law and 10 percent grace.”
John Wycliffe, the Bible translator. He said, “The highest service to which a man may obtain on earth is to preach the law of God.”
Martin Luther: He said, “Satan, the god of all dissension stirs up daily new sects. And last of all which of all others I should never have foreseen or once suspected, he has raised up a sect such as teach that men should not be terrified by the law, but gently exhorted by the preaching of the grace of Christ.”
Charles Spurgeon: “I do not believe that any man can preach the gospel who does not preach the Law.” Then he warns, “Lower the Law and you dim the light by which man perceives his guilt; this is a very serious loss to the sinner rather than a gain; for it lessens the likelihood of his conviction and conversion. I say you have deprived the gospel of its ablest auxiliary [its most powerful weapon] when you have set aside the Law. You have taken away from it the schoolmaster that is to bring men to Christ . . . They will never accept grace till they tremble before a just and holy Law. Therefore the Law serves a most necessary purpose, and it must not be removed from its place.”
John Newton (wrote "Amazing Grace"): “Ignorance of the nature and design of the Law is at the bottom of most religious mistakes.”
thanks for your input everyone, and I encourage you to search the scriptures to find out what is true. Christians sharing their faith is important and can be done many ways. A closer look will show you Ray Comfort would agree. There is a proper place for the Law and it is in revealing the nature of sin. If a person is fearful because they see themselves in true nature and in danger of Hell this is a good thing. "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." and it is our place as Christians to preach grace also that when a person comes to Christ in ture repentance is saved by the merciful gift of the Cross.
"The law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith," (Gal. 3:24)
sorry for being longwinded but I wanted to add this.
Jodi said "for the most part, I'm not an evangelical. I believe Christ's ultimate commandment is to love God and others." YES and Jesus said if you love God you will do what He commands. What He commands is to "go into all the world and preach to every living creature" Another word for love is evangelism. If you didn't love someone then you would have no problem with them going to Hell. If you truly loved someone you would want that person in Heaven with you. It's true we can also show love by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, giving our time and money... But what about the self-righteous and those who are enjoying sin for a season? Don't you want everyone to go to Heaven? Read Ezekial 33, look closely and you'll see what God thinks.
I think it was either Wesley or Spurgeon who said "if you're not doing that which God commands, the job of winning souls for Christ, then you are playing a very wicked part as a Christian."
"use of the Law is the way of bringing the conviction of sin to the proud self-righteous... Take a closer look at scripture before you condemn or approve what you read."
Oscar you may want to take a dose of your own advice. Anyone can take a piece of scripture out of context and attempt to use it to validate almost anything. In this case using Romans 3:19 in defense of the misguided evangelism techniques of Ray Comfort. Among other things, it is bad exegesis and application of scripture.
Sure repentance is a key factor in authentic conversion. That is not the issue in question. But how a Christian "leads" someone to such repentance is. To insist that there is one biblical, apostolic or historical technique is not only naive but extremely arrogant.
When Paul stood up at the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17) he damn sure did not say 'people of Athens here are the 10 commandments from God to my people, you are not living by them. Repent or you will burn in hell!'
No, in fact Paul starts with where they are at by declaring to them what they know as an "unknown god" as the God of Israel the Father of Jesus who was raised from death. He starts from general revelation and works his way to special revelation and indeed to repentance.
Now we know by Paul's letter to the Romans that he does not believe that general revelation alone has the light or ability to save. Nonetheless Paul starts with the common ground he has with the people of Athens i.e. the belief that the divine exist.
The New Testament as well as church tradition offers a plurality of ways to share the gospel. This makes sense because there are many different types of people in this world coming from many different spiritual backgrounds.
This is not an easy thing to discern. This is why there are different callings within the Church and not all are gifted to be evangelist. Yes we are all called to bear witness but we do not all have "the gift of evangelism."
There is also a history of bad evangelism tecniques in the church. Ray Comfort's techniques - though perhaps a little better than those implemented in the Crusades - still is are not good ones.
Wayne you said "When Paul stood up at the Areopagus in Athens (Acts 17) he damn sure did not say 'people of Athens here are the 10 commandments from God to my people, you are not living by them. Repent or you will burn in hell!'
No, in fact Paul starts with where they are at by declaring to them what they know as an "unknown god" as the God of Israel the Father of Jesus who was raised from death. He starts from general revelation and works his way to special revelation and indeed to repentance.
Now we know by Paul's letter to the Romans that he does not believe that general revelation alone has the light or ability to save. Nonetheless Paul starts with the common ground he has with the people of Athens i.e. the belief that the divine exist."
Of course Paul didn't say "THIS IS THE LAW, OBEY OR YOU'LL GO TO HELL!!!" That would be offensive to them. I'm glad you used these passages because it's exactly the kind of approach I'm talking about. Paul used something these people were familiar with, their gods, and deliberately used the "unkown god" it to swing to the Gospel of Christ. We can do the same thing by using something a person is intimate or familiar with today to intentionally change conversation to spiritual subjects.
I agree the use of the Law isn't the only way to approach someone, as I said we give law to the proud grace to the humble. This is why I stress the study of scripture to know it's proper use. Much of the time in witnessing the law doesn't come up at all, most of the time witnessing involves me buying a hitchhiker a meal and showing him the love Jesus was talking about, the law isn't necessary because he's already humble, he's not trying to justify himself. It's the proud, self-righteous, those who are trying to justify themselves by their works who need the Law.
Also, remember we're not always out to reap the harvest, most of the time we just plant seeds. I witnessed to my sister for an hour the other day and I didn't bring the law up once, but she did bring it up by saying she felt sorry for the things she's done. I didn't ask her to or mention judgement or Hell, I just asked her what she thought happens to a person after they die and she took over the conversation. However, since she has a conscience (con-with, science-knowledge) she has sinned with knowledge and without excuse. Because of her own conviction of sin by her previous knowledge of some of the ten commandments, all I had to do was warn her that the Bible says we will all stand before God in judgement (see bottom of posst) so all I had to do was give her grace by telling her what God did so she can be made righteous by the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and be free from the Law and Judgement. I could discern at the time she wasn't ready to give up her sin and make a commitment because I said "You don't seem ready to give up your sin." and she said "you're right, how did you know that?" So I didn't lead her in a commitment prayer but encouraged her to read the Bible and pray. The choice to turn to Christ is up to her. What good work God has started, He'll finish.
When was the last time you shared your faith? Look at Revelation 3:16, it says "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." Are you a lukewarm Christian? I'm not challenging you to preach from the rooftops, but are there people you know, family members, who aren't saved? It can be a fearful thing, it was for Jeremiah in verse 1:6-8 Moses in Exodus 3:11,4:10, Gideon in Judges 6:15,25-27, Paul in 1Cor. 2:1-5. Why would God call these guys if they were so unqualified? Look at 2Cor. 2:4-5 for the answer.
You also said "There is also a history of bad evangelism tecniques in the church(I couldn't agree more). Ray Comfort's techniques - though perhaps a little better than those implemented in the Crusades - still is are not good ones."
I agree there have been some terrible things done in the name of Christianity (especially by televangelists). Have you ever read any of Ray Comfort's books from cover to cover and compared them to scripture? Or just glance through a few pages, maybe read a tract or checked out his website... be honest? Ray preaches Christ and Him crucified, according to the Apostle Paul you should rejoice in that. If his methods are bringing people to the Cross you should rejoice in that.
You said "Yes we are all called to bear witness but we do not all have "the gift of evangelism."" True we're not all called to be like Billy Graham but look at Mark 16:15
It's like saying we don't all have the gift of love. If God said "Love your neighbor as yourself" then He meant it. If you love your neighbor won't you want him to be in Heaven?
If you would like some books or audio by Ray Comfort or other's I'd be happy to send them to you at no cost. Email me at dakotalacrosse@yahoo.com with your address.
If you're not willing to look skeptically at his books and compare them to scripture there's lots of other good stuff out there. Ray might be a little funny looking but he preaches Biblically and he's a surfer so I gotta like him. I just ordered Mark Cahill's "One Thing You Can't Do In Heaven" I'll send you a copy if you want one. Or I'll give you 12 bucks to buy it.
judgement: Psalm 2:12; 7:11-13; 76:8 Acts 18:9 Prov. 11:21; Matt. 25:32; John 5:28,29; Acts 17:31; Rom. 2:16,14:10; 2Cor. 5:10; 2Thess. 1:8-10; 2Tim 4:1; Heb. 9:27; 2Pet. 6:10,11; Eccl. 12:13
Thanks for your reply Wayne, I'm going to be gone for a week so have a good one yourself and I'll hear from you soon.
Oscar
"YES and Jesus said if you love God you will do what He commands. What He commands is to "go into all the world and preach to every living creature" Another word for love is evangelism. If you didn't love someone then you would have no problem with them going to Hell. If you truly loved someone you would want that person in Heaven with you. It's true we can also show love by feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, giving our time and money... But what about the self-righteous and those who are enjoying sin for a season? Don't you want everyone to go to Heaven? Read Ezekial 33, look closely and you'll see what God thinks".
Thanks Oscar for the good discussion and for posting on my blog. A couple things. While proof texting to make your point, you misquoted the scriptures. You wrote, "go into all the world and preach to every living creature". You left out the words "good news". I won't go into the importance of getting a quote correct when quoting anything, let alone the scriptures, but I believe the issue is actually with modern day evangelistic "preaching". We have lost eh message of the good news. The news of life to the full.
"Another word for love is evangelism". Another word for this is "made-up". Could you reference where you got this? I understand what you mean, but to say that "evangelism" means the same thing as "love" is innacurate.
"If you didn't love someone then you would have no problem with them going to Hell. If you truly loved someone you would want that person in Heaven with you".
Again, this is going to be our biggest difference. It's a pretty big one though. Tell me if i misrepresent you here. You think that the gospel can be delivered in such a way as to influence a person to make a decision for Christ. This is a salesmanship model (which I have sadly partaken in too foten). It is a position of power. It is not how Messiah has set things up in his Kingdom. Gentleness and Peace bring furthur the kingdom. "Love never demands it's own way" as a wise man once said.
This method of evangelism also depends heavily on fear. Fear is a very effective way to get people to do what you want (see Iraq War, the media, and Fundamentalism). Again, this is not the "Way of the Master".
You also make some assumptions about Jodi's charachter. You assume that if she is not "doing evangleism" as you do that she doesn't love people and doesn't care about whether they go to hell. I don't know you and so I will assume you meant no disrespect, but Jodi cares deeply for all living things (except our roommates cat) and for the Kingdom.
Lastly, you said "look closely and you'll see what God thinks".
Let's do that. I think that the overall message of the scriptures is a positive one. A story of God in relationship with his creation. There is definately much in there about repentace, but there is more about lving in harmony with God and his creation. There is much more to the gospel than eternity.
Again, thanks for joining us in conversation. As long as we all stay civil I'm sure we can all benefit from each persons'perspectives.
Christian.
Oscar said: "It's...those who are trying to justify themselves by their works who need the Law."
What???
I'll explain why this doesn't make sense to me if anyone needs me to.
Please do Juanito. I love to hear you wax eloquant.
Posts are too long!!!
People don't listen to the turn-or-burn approach anymore. We might actually have to start loving people to "get an ear".
Keith... I know reading is difficult for you, but it is important. Don't worry about readin mine because they are mostly rediculous. But others have some good things to say.
I agree about the turn or burn. Evangelism should not start with Hell or sin for that matter.
This is the ultimate debate of Modern Christians vs. Postmodern Christians, is it not? On one side of the debate we have someone saying love = this, on the other love = that. I've been reading a lot about this shift over the last 10 years, most of it in the academic world relating to society in general (but those trends can easily be connected within christiandome as it tends to want to follow societal trends anyhow, see any mass media clip for more support). My judgement is that if one does not believe or acknowledge the reality of this shift in paradigms and world views, not only is that one missing out on valuable "connecting" tools but also (more importantly) a deeper understanding of being created in the image of God.
Evangelicalism is a realitively new phanominon that is on it's way out. That's a fact. "Evangelical" churches are scrambling to "find ways to keep people and attract more."
You're right Christian, it's totally about salesmanship. It's a big-business model where if you are able to articulate eliquently enough you can manipulate ANYONE into believing this stuff.
I don't want to be a part of something like that, even though that is exactly how I came to be a part of the kingdom!
I want my friends, family, and people I meet to SEE JESUS in me through the things I say and do, the way I love my husband and raise my children. The programs I watch, the music I listen to, the charities I support, the books I read.
Oscar, I'm not intending to sound impolite or offensive but for someone who quotes that law should be preached 90 percent and grace 10 percent...(even though you were quoting someone else you were using it for your argument thus it can be attributed to your thought process) i haven't seen a whole lot of levitical law quoted in your arguments, I've noticed multiple quotes from Paul and even John. I have read scripture, both old and new. For without reading the old we have no context with which to put Jesus' words, or any of the apostles for that matter.
In Micah 6:8 GOD tells us to "DO justice, LOVE mercy, WALK humbly with the Lord." All three are verbs requiring ACTION. GOD didn't tell Micah to say to his people, "oh, yeah, and if you get time..." This IS what GOD has spoken. IF we believe that scripture is devinely written & inspired then we can agree that Jesus' words in the Gosples were infact what he said, right Oscar? Well then let's look at that.
Matthew 19:17
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
And in Mark 12 Jesus says:
29"The most important one (commandment)," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
In John 21 Jesus said three times that if Simon Peter really loves him he will take care of his lambs/sheep.
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."18Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
I believe Jesus is telling us that our greatest responsibility is to do this, this is the message he wants spread throughout all the nations and kingdoms.
Judgement is not ours, am I right? Then why are we so concerned about the end result of our love with our fellow humans? Our job is to LOVE, God will do the rest, for he is the only one who truely knows the hearts and minds of his creation. To presume we know these things is to presume equality with God and look where that got us the first time (Moses' account of the creation story).
These are my thoughts on the matter. I know I used a lot of "proof" texting but hopefully got Jesus' intentions correct. If not, feel free to correct my interpretation and I will take it under consideration, although I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to these things (even if I'm not the world's best at argument).
I want to clear up one thing I think some of you may be confused about. This Biblical approach of using the Law to show a sinner his true self and his need for the Savior (someone who is proud and thinks himself righteous will one day stand before God and find out he's not, one can only be righteous before God by the shed blood of Christ. and one who is humble doesn't need the Law to bring him down, he needs grace- both grace and the Law are the way we show the love Jesus talked about.)
"The Way of The Master" program by Ray Comfort isn't a slash and grab, hell-fire type of evangelism. i think the confusion here is that you may think the few minutes Ray Comfort or myself use to talk to someone is all they get. What is true is that I can become someone's friend by showing them love, and just being friendly and that only takes a few minutes. Actually It's not a three minute gospel, it's a three minute "Hello, how ya doin? Did you catch the Cubs game last night?"(get the point?) Then intentionally swinging the conversation to eternal things wchich can take hours or years, the goal isn't an immediate decision for Christ but it's our work as Christian's to plant seeds that God will water. Hellfire preaching brings fearfilled converts, the Law and Grace brings tearfilled converts.
Thanks all for your comments and I do hope you take the time to read your Bible daily and pray for guidence from the Holy Spirit as I leave you with these words from Martin Luther:
“Satan, the god of all dissension stirs up daily new sects. And last of all which of all others I should never have foreseen or once suspected, he has raised up a sect such as teach that men should not be terrified by the law, but gently exhorted by the preaching of the grace of Christ.”
thanks, and God bless
Oscar
One last thing... if you haven't had the chance please listen to or watch "Hell's Best Kept Secret". You can hear it at www.livingwaters.com and find the video on YouTube.com or email me and I'll send you a copy free of charge.
If you haven't the time or patience I recommend watching part of it at http://youtube.com/watch?v=xnWpSZ5YxZw to see how "offensive" it really is to share Jesus.
Shalomy,
Oscar
Good comment Jodi. Well thoguht out and articulated. Here was my favorite part:
"My judgement is that if one does not believe or acknowledge the reality of this shift in paradigms and world views, not only is that one missing out on valuable "connecting" tools but also (more importantly) a deeper understanding of being created in the image of God."
You sound like such a sociologist. Oh, you are.
Oscar. I can appreciate your perspective. I just disagree with your starting point. Tell me if I'm wrong. You think Love=evangelism. I believe believe love looks much different. I don't feel the need to turn every conversation to the eternal. I think this cheats the gospel.
Also, I would even disagree with you about the method in which to do evangelism. I have been trained to look for a connecting point (like the cubs) in order to win trust and assure the person I am normal. Any salesman can tell you of the effectiveness of this. But in a post-modern world where people are skeptical of religion and any authority or agenda minded people, it simply won't work and is harmful to many.
Lastly, I am offended that you keep telling me to read my Bible and then giving me a quote about your judgements on things I need to change. Can you stop doing it so we can cut through the bullshit and continue real conversation.
That being said, I have seen Hell's best Kept secret (even thoguh it was a long time ago). I wouldn't recomend it to anybody because it is fear based evangelsim. But I've already commented on my issues with this method.
Good discussion...however, I am finding my blood beginning to boil with lots and lots to say and am fearful that the post will a) become too long, and b) say something hurtful or offensive. So I will rest with this. I don't agree with Oscar. I will continue to read scripture and check it against tradition & reason (as my tradition teaches) and hopefully become even more clear as to how God calls me to live my life.
Peace.
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